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Mutazilite are NOT Sunnite

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The Mutazilite are a distinct group NOT Sunnite. I edited it and described the relation between them and the Sunni and Shia Islam, three Caliphates were Mutazilite in the Abbasid empire, Al-Ma'mun, Al-Mu'tasim and Al-Wathiq, then the Caliphates supported the Sunnite again since Al-Mutawakkil. Atheerkt (talk) 11:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that depends on whom one asks. According to the Royal Ahl al-Bayt Institute in Jordan, Mu'tazilah are technically considered a sub category of Sunni. Even IBn Taymiyyah, a polemical dogmatist who is the figurehead of declaring other Muslims to be heretics, conceded that Mu'tazilah can be considered Sunni depending on the context in which the word "Sunni" is used. I think it would be better to represent that difficulty in delineating sects in the text. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:12, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with MezzoMezzo. I add we should avoid losing reality behind boxes. People can be many things at once, and these terms should not be so concrete to preclude that possibility. e.g. Sunni and Sufi. --Inayity (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, and a very good point. With Sufi it's clear, I think like 90% are within Sunni Islam. Mu'tazila can get sticky but we still need to avoid boxes. For example, the Zaidi branch of Shi'ism is often associated with I'tizal. Likewise, the Ibadhiyyah in Oman - the third extant branch of Islam - is referred to as Kharijite by Sunnis but a Sunni friend of mine who lives in Oman said they consider themselves close to Mu'tazila. Then you get Sunni Mu'tazilites like Ibn al-Jinni the liinguist, Zamakhshari the Hanafi, and so forth.
Actually...we could just go for what reliable sources say. The Royal Ahl al-Bayt Institute (Jordanian establishment) holds Mu'tazila as a sub-branch of Sunni. That ought to be included. There are probably academic sources noting that this is disputed. That can be included as well. We just present to the reader what the sources say; readers will make up their minds for themselves, and invariably they will not all come to the same conclusions. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's a terrific upgrade MezzoMezzo - There will be no end of quibbling over it. However, I am curious, about such a designation excluding the Qaraite Jews. Qaraim themselves, according to this with whom I've explored this topic, readily admit to the influence of Mu'tazila in their approach to Hebrew canonical texts and Halakha. I would offer that the distinctions of who was Jew, Khajarite, Sunni, Shi'a, Ismaili, etc, became more rigid at a later date. Just kicking down some feedback. Jimharlow99 (talk) 00:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In my reading, I have found that the distinctions between sects started even in the time of the Rashidun Caliphate. Kharijites were spoken of in a tradition attributed to Muhammad, and those who murdered Ali were also branded as Kharijites, among them the Haruriya about whom A'isha spoke against. The Qadariyya, Jabariyya and Murji'ah also appeared very early. Sunni-Shi'a existed from the time of Abu Bakr, though much of the mainstream Shi'ite creed would be developed later, yes. But I don't know of any time when the distinction between a Jew, Karaite or other, and a Muslim, wasn't rigid; can you provide reliabgle sources?
As for supposed quibbling over the inclusion of Mu;tazila roughly within Sunni Islam, then this is historical fact supported by multiple reliable sources we can all bring if we only take the time. Let sectarians quibble but Wikipedia is here for accurate representation, not how Muslims would like to view themselves and their divisions. MezzoMezzo (talk) 02:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@TheEagle107:: As you can see, this has been discussed before, and while it is obvious that the Mutazilites were at variance with Sunni orthodoxy, they are not viewed as being outside of Sunnism in general. To add to the above points and references, there are various other sources one can cite that show the position of Mutazilism relative to Shi'ism: "The Mutazilites found support again from the Buyid sultans, the effective rulers of the Abbasid Empire in the late tenth and early eleventh centuries; but the overthrow of the Buyids by the Seljuk Turks was effectively the end for Mutazilite rationalism within Sunni Islam. Ernest Gellner and Contemporary Social Thought, "While Mutazilism had become marginalized in Sunni Islam..." [1], "The result is a polarized view of the Mu‛tazili tradition; Islamists view the Mu‛tazila as a heresy best forgotten while modernists, Muslim and Western, as historical proof of Islam’s essentially rational character." [2] - the latter in particular highlights the intrinsic POV in stating in Wikivoice that Mutazilites are not a part of the Sunni tradition, when in fact Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari himself first studied under the Mutazilite Al-Jubba'i - a context in which the assertion that Mutazilites were not Sunni would be quite extraordinary. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323: Any controversial statements should be attributed to whoever made them. Please note that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. With all due respect, this is UNDUE and a fringe theory that has no academic support! Even the Mu'tazilis themselves, would disagree vigorously! Can you show me any source or reference from the books of the Sunnis or even the Mu'tazilis, throughout the entire Islamic history, in which any scholar said that the Mu'tazilis are Sunnis?!

The vast majority of sources do not consider them to be Sunnis, even though they were followers of the Hanafi school of thought, exactly just like the Karramis. 

In contrast to the Mu'tazilites (who are not Sunni), al-Ash'ari held that the Attributes are not simply words (lafz) or modes (ahwal), but real things (ashya') subsisting in God from eternity.[1]

The founders of the major Sunni theological schools: Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855), Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 324/936), Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d. 333/944) ALL OF THEM strongly criticized the Mu'tazilis and did not consider them to be Sunnis. The formal name of the Sunni Muslims is the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a (the People of the Sunna and the Majority/Consensus/Community/Collective), while the Mu'tazilis referred to themselves as Ahl al-'Adl wa al-Tawhid (the People of Justice and Monotheism).--TheEagle107 (talk) 14:46, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not fringe and you have provided no evidence that the "vast majority of sources" say anything. You have provided just one reliable source and a mere handful of not particularly reliable sources to make your point, just as I myself have provided three sources to make the opposite point. However, you have provided absolutely no basis for which to describe the characterization of the Mutazilites as part of the broad Sunni umbrella as fringe. I do not disagree that there is some variation among the sources on the subject, but, as it stands, the only thing that is exceptional here is your entirely unevidenced claim that what I am suggesting based on sources is fringe. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]


  • Sunni schools: The Sunni school is one of the largest branches of the Islamic faith. The word Sunni originates from sunnah, which means the tradition of Islam's Prophet Muḥammad. There are four Sunni schools of law (madhhab), which are Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hambali and Maliki. All four schools of law take their creed (ʿaqīdah) from the three schools of theology, Ash'ari, Athari and Māturidī. ......... Mu'tazili: This school of Islamic theology came into being through controversies involving the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an in its anthropomorphic description of God and the denial of free will. ...[2]

  • People of the sunna and the community: The Sunnis are the majority of the umma, and they include the Ash'arites, the Maturidi, and the Salafists who follow the four schools of jurisprudence and others, in contrast to the Mu'tazilites and Kharijites.[3]

  • Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies and therefore cannot become a minority or a majority. While it is true that some Shia scholars have been influenced by Mu`tazilism, Sunni Muslims have shunned Mu`tazilism since the end of the inquisition (Mihna), on account of the caliph's enforcement of reason-based doctrines from Mu`tazilite thinkers.[4]

  • Though Sunni Muslims regarded the Mu'tazila as heretical, their ideas continued to influence Shi'i thinkers in Persia.[5]

  • The other significant group is the Mu'tazila, a historical group who flourished in the 9th and 10th centuries, and for some centuries thereafter. They are rejected by the Sunnis because, in their view, the Mu'tazila overstress the role of reason.[6]

  • Since then, the vast majority of Sunni scholars have considered the Mu'tazila as heretical.[7]

  • Eventually Sunnis rejected the theories of the Mu'tazilites, while the Twelver and Zaydī Shī'īs accepted a large part of them[8]

  • Although Sunnis considered Mu'tazilism to be a heresy, Mu'tazilite legal theory and its perspective on hadiths had a major impact on Sunni legal theory.[9]

  • In the same way that the Mu'tazilites opposed the Sunnis in theology[10]

  • Gimaret (1980) has written a detailed study on Mu'tazilite and Sunnite thought on the subject of human acts and the arguments theologians used to defend their positions.[11]

So there is immediately some ambiguity even among these quotes, such as: "Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies...", which by inference implies Mu'tazilism once was a sect or school of thought in Sunni societies. More generally, the problem with most of this statements, taken out of context, is that they provide no sense of the time periods that they address. Now obviously when Ash'ari was studying under a well-known Mutazilite, they probably weren't considered "heretical". Then the theology went through a bad patch after al-Ma'mun promoted it in a somewhat authoritarian manner and then al-Mutawakkil repudiated it. But right there in the middle though, Mutazilism was the theology officially supported by the caliph. Most of the above quotes, without their context, don't really explain what the periods are that they are talking about. In modern times, there is also plenty of confusion about what the classical Mutazilites argued and what 'neo-Mutazilites' today argue, as outlined quite succinctly in the abstract here. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:20, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are fundamental differences between the Mu'tazilis and the Sunnis, especially in 'aqidah (Islamic creed) and Usul al-Din (the principles of religion), and these differences are not just minor differences. In addition, as I said above, the Mu'tazilis themselves did not consider themselves to be Sunnis. There is no disagreement or dispute about this throughout the Islamic history! The only thing common between the Mu'tazilis and the Sunnis is in the fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) as the Mu'tazilis used to follow the Hanafi school of thought.

  • In the late eighth and ninth centuries, a Hanafi-Murjia orientation was strong in Isfahan, Rayy, and Khurasan, while in Baghdad some Hanafis were Mutazilis and others were Sunnis.[13]

  • Because many thought the rationalism of the Mu'tazilites was extreme, Sunni Muslims often regarded them as heretics (Watt 1985, 55). Their ascendancy ended with the rule of the Sunni caliph al-Mutawakkil, who destroyed their movement.[14]

  • The Sunnis distinguished themselves from the Mu'tazilis who usually conducted more reasoning by leaving aside some hadiths which were considered irrelevant and weak, da'if. In some cases, such as on the issue of anthropomorphism, the latter eliminated some hadiths opposing their doctrine, although the hadiths were reliable, sahih. Consequently, while the Mu'tazilis were widely influenced by the ideas of philosophers, the Sunnis were completely impressed by those of the Ashab, and the salaf al-salih, and the reliable 'ulama' in the medieval period as well.[15]

Each branch of Islam has some central beliefs (Usul al-Din). Sunni Muslims follow the six articles of faith ("It is to believe in Allah (God), His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, and that you believe in preordainment (destiny), its bad and good consequences.") and Shi'a Muslims follow the five roots of Usul al-Din (see: Twelver theology). However, all Mu'tazilis regardless of their differences agreed on five foundational doctrines or principles (Usul al-Din). These principles were:

  • (1) al-tawhid or the oneness and uniqueness of God,
  • (2) al-'adl or the justice of God,
  • (3) al-wa'ad wa al-wa'id, or the promise and threat of God,
  • (4) al-manzala bayn al-manzilatayn, that the grave sinner that has not yet repented cannot be designated with belief (iman) nor disbelief (kufr),
  • and finally (5) al-amr bi-al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar, commanding good and forbidding wrong.

For more details on these issues, see:

  • Kitab al-Mughni fi Abwab al-Tawhid wa al-'Adl (Book of the plenitude on the topics concerning monotheism and justice) by al-Qadi 'Abd al-Jabbar (d. 415/1024). He also wrote a work on the five principles entitled Kitāb al-Usul al-Khamsa and dictated a commentary for it entitled Sharh al-Usul al-Khamsa. Peace.--TheEagle107 (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Jeffry R. Halverson (2010). Theology and Creed in Sunni Islam: The Muslim Brotherhood, Ash'arism, and Political Sunnism. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 20. ISBN 9780230106581.
  2. ^ Hakan Gok (2018). Atheism or Theism?: The Perspective of Said Nursi. Wipf and Stock Publishers. p. 16. ISBN 9781532646799.
  3. ^ Erik Skare (2021). Palestinian Islamic Jihad: Islamist Writings on Resistance and Religion. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 51. ISBN 9780755635931.
  4. ^ Ahmed Souaiaia (2021). Human Rights in Islamic Societies: Muslims and the Western Conception of Rights. Routledge. p. 54. ISBN 9781000389654.
  5. ^ Oliver Leaman (2015). The Biographical Encyclopedia of Islamic Philosophy. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 421. ISBN 9781472569462.
  6. ^ Norman Calder; Jawid Mojaddedi (2022). Interpretation and Jurisprudence in Medieval Islam. Routledge. p. 33. ISBN 9781000560015.
  7. ^ Carool Kersten (2019). Contemporary Thought in the Muslim World: Trends, Themes, and Issues. Routledge. p. 421. ISBN 9781135008925.
  8. ^ Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr (2014). Lessons in Islamic Jurisprudence. Simon and Schuster. p. 421. ISBN 9781780746869.
  9. ^ Jonathan A.C. Brown (2017). Hadith: Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World. Simon and Schuster. p. 103. ISBN 9781786073082.
  10. ^ Ibrahim M. Abu-Rabi' (2008). Contemporary Thought in the Muslim World: Trends, Themes, and Issues. SUNY Press. p. 382. ISBN 9780791474747.
  11. ^ Margaretha T. Heemskerk (2000). Suffering in the Mu'tazilite Theology: ʻAbd Al-J̆abbār's Teaching on Pain and Divine Justice. BRILL. p. 100. ISBN 9789004117266.
  12. ^ Jeffrey T. Kenney (2006). Muslim Rebels: Kharijites and the Politics of Extremism in Egypt. Oxford University Press. p. 35. ISBN 9780195131697.
  13. ^ Ira M. Lapidus (2014). A History of Islamic Societies. Cambridge University Press. p. 127. ISBN 9780521514309.
  14. ^ Edward Grant (2006). Science and Religion, 400 B.C. to A.D. 1550: From Aristotle to Copernicus. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 236. ISBN 9780801884016.
  15. ^ Michael Pye, Edith Franke, Alef Theria Wasim, Abdurrahman Mas'ud (2012). Religious Harmony: Problems, Practice, and Education. Walter de Gruyter. p. 222. ISBN 9783110901283.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Rename to Mu'tazila

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FYI
 – User:JCScaliger has been indef blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Pmanderson (blocked for another year for abusive sockpuppetry).
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mu'tazili → Mu'tazila – Not only Mu'tazila is the correct form of the Arabic معتزلة, it is also more popular, compare here:

  • I think the article mostly tackles the theological beliefs of the group and not the population as such. Even if the latest is true we should rather use the plural form per WP:PLURAL, (see Germans, Jews...)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Stating that the Muʿtazila were celebrated.

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As stated before, this is an opinion that is stated via a farfetched website based on economics.

The first 3 website that appear on google regarding the Mu’tazilites don't mention anything regard them being celebrated. I would rather take the BBC, Britania, or the Oxford Bibliographies that give a neutral introduction over a random quote from a random website chosen to cherry-pick the editor in questions opinion. The person who kept changing this and called me a "troll" even admitted it was a minority opinion on the edit history page. If I wanted I could also find a million sources stated the Muʿtazila were hated - but I am not biased so I would not.

Please removed the "celebrated" comment, because as stated above, the main sources regarding the Muʿtazila do not mention this.

The is no doubting to the fact that the Mutazalites were a very well known group during the Islamic Golden age, but the cited source is not a reliable one. I have removed that claim from the the article for now. Thank you. Mosesheron (talk) 14:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 March 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mutazilism → Mu'tazilism –
This page was recently moved from Mu'tazila to Mutazilism with the rationale "The current page title is a collective noun for adherents of the theological school, not the noun for the theological school itself, and needs to move to the format consistent with its peers: Atharism and Maturidism".
I agree with the rationale, but omitting the straight apostrophe in the move target was a mistake: the version with the apostrophe is much more common, e.g. Google Scholar yields 347 results for "Mutazilism" vs 1,850 results for "Mu'tazilism". This is of course also consistent with what we have at Ash'arism. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Yes, standard transliteration, not controversial. Could have been a technical move. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, Iskandar323, back in the day I executed the move from Mu'tazila to Mutazilism as a technical move on your behalf [5]. It did feel a tad strange at the moment omitting that apostrophe, but as I'm not well versed with Arabic 'ayins and whatnots, I figured out you knew what you were doing. :) No such user (talk) 09:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Don't have a good answer to that. Bad/hasty call on my part? Obviously both spellings do exist, but I guess I oscillate a bit between thinking Wikipedia prefers the basic transliteration-equivalent words and transliterative orthodoxy. It's a bit of a scattershot across the platform. My mission last month was purging bare adjectives and I guess I just went with what I thought might be less objectionable/controversial technical move. But this is such a niche topic, and the source weight is now so obvious (alongside it being the more precise transliteration) that yeah, with the wider support for it, it absolutely makes sense to use that spelling. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • This would have been very hard to know without looking at the numbers. It's not like ayn or hamza are always conserved in common transcriptions. There are, for example, 793.000 hits for "Quran" vs 417.000 hits for "Qur'an", so we still have Quran despite Qur'an being pretty popular (especially in scholarly literature). I already figured that I could just do a bold move (citing the numbers in my edsum) and I would have, except that Mu'tazilism is a redirect with more than one revision, and so I would have needed to post at WP:RM/TR, where it would perhaps be objected that the page has just been moved and so that it is not uncontroversial. Hence the full RM. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 January 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WP:RMEC: initiated by a sockpuppet, and no other support for the move request at this time. Dekimasuよ! 15:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mu'tazilism → Mu'tazilites – per WP:COMMONNAME.

And for consistency with former Islam-related sects such as Kharijites, not "Kharijism", Kaysanites, not "Kaysanism". Kermanshehi (talk) 16:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Islam has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Religion has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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